Introducing….. “The Attack Dog Awards (The Atties)” along with final thoughts on the creation museum.
I’m nearly speechless by the hits I have recieved in the past few days. I’m honored by the comments. Thanks.
So, to keep you all coming back, I’m introducing a new feature, inspired by the guard dogs at the creation museum. Allow me to introduce the Atties.
The Atties will be given to those who demonstrate poor reasoning, poor thinking, and other actions that lead to destroying an enviorment where good discussion can happen in the atheist/christian dialouge. And a warning, these awards will not discriminate between christian or atheist. So, both groups are going to need to put their big boy/girl pants on.
So, without further ado, the first winner of this award.
It’s fitting that the first winner of this award should be the group that inspired it, the Creation Museum. They win the award because of the latent dualism that runs throughout the museum. For example, in one of the early displays, they have a huge wall covering display that stacks God’s word against man’s reasoning. Even worse, they carry this theme throughout the museum.
There are all kinds of problems with this way of thinking. Without realizing it, they set up human reason as a power almost equal with God in a Zorastarian view of the world. Further, it leads to the idea that thinking is an almost idolatrous act and should be avoided.
The problem with this is that God tells us differently. He invites us to reason, to think, to question. There are many examples of this in the Bible, but the first chapter of Isaiah will do as He invites us to “come now, let’s reason together.” That isn’t to say that our reasoning is not limited, finite and affected by the Fall. That’s a post for another time. However, God made reason. He likes it. And as creatures made in His image, we are required to keep doing it.
And further, this latent dualism in those who set up the Creation Museum has lead to their fear, distrust, and refusal to engage those who disagree. Thus the guard dogs, the looks of fear, and the lack of grace I saw on Friday.
So, congrats Creation Museum. You have won the first ever Attie. Take a bow.
St. Thomas, release the hounds…..
The Thomas Society 
Dude, I have seen you release the hounds, I can only wonder what St. Thomas would be like…I wonder if he would try to touch the wounds of whoever they bit?
Ha! Nice! Most likely, most likely.
From an atheist – You could certainly teach the infamous Pastor Tom a thing or too.
Well done on your civilized behaviour.
Thanks PBXX. Hope the comments were helpful to understand that we Christians try and fail like everyone else.
PS Tom Estes has just let off some more vitriol about you in his latest post.
He deleted a post by Jen who you met at the conference, merely for linking to your blog , as he hadn’t the courtesy to link when he slagged you off . (slag = UK english).
I however, posted and said unlike him you understand PR which he clearly doesn’t !
No doubt as we ‘speak’ my post is being removed.
#
Cheers .
PPS yep , he’s taken my post and two more linking to you !
Obviously he doesn’t want any rational Christians known about !
So far, I see you doing more trying and less failing than most. =) Thank you for speaking; it’s refreshing to hear Christians speaking out against ignorance, and treating atheists not as enemies or potential converts but as people.
I’m interested in this concept about human reason. There’s this “God” versus “human reasoning” duality going on in the Creation Theme Park, and as far as I can tell in the Evangelical Christian mindset as well, but it seems to me to be a weird attempt at a dichotomy. Human reason, in terms of science and philosophy in any case, doesn’t seem to be “facing the same direction” as the Christian concept of God. I see human reasoning, or rather the collective reasoning of a whole lot of humans, as more a case of an attempt to understand what’s already there, to a greater and greater extent.
It might not necessarily be complimentary, but I get this visual image of moss advancing over a fallen tree. The moss didn’t create the tree, but the tree is definitely there, and the moss is very interested in covering it in all its detail and complexity. Would you say all that is fair to say from your own Christian point of view?
I read it and responded to him. Sigh.
Your welcome, Johann. Welcome to the Thomas Society!
Great questions on the idea of human reason/God. Let me try to break some of it down.
I would make some distinctions here. Modern Evangelical Christianity has been heavily influenced by the Second Great Awakening and it’s anti-intelllecual, moralistic bent. There is a whole history of this and I would recommoned the book by Mark Noll called, The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind. Mark is an evangelical so he is like me, pressing for change from the inside. Essentially, it helps us remember that Christianity has a huge long history of intellectual pursuits. In the sciences, people like Newton, Mendel, and Collins (list is much longer), in philsophy, Augustine, Aquinas, Plantinga, writers such a Tolkein, Lewis, O’Connor. The list is long. All of these people believed that reason, creativity and investigation where not just allowed by God, they are required. We believe that reason is one of the marks of being made in God’s image.
I think human reason certainly begins with trying to understand what is there. That’s how all such questions get answered. Does that make sense? If not, ask me, and I’ll try to clarify. It’s been a long weekend. 🙂
That is interesting. I really need to look more into the Second Great Awakening, since it seems to be the key to context with these issues.
Your list of scientists, philosopher and artists is interesting, since nothing comparable to them has really arisen out of the modern evangelical movement. And yet, anti-intellectual evangelists call upon those same names to brag about the rightness of their position without realizing that they take a very different position than the one that fostered those great minds. Highly interesting.
Too true on all accounts, I’m afraid. Although, Plantinga is alive and well, teaching at the Univesity of Notre Dame and Francis Collins has just been appointed to the NIH by President Obama. So, there is hope. Sadly, on the Literature front, there is very little encouragement.
http://hardtruth.squarespace.com/home/2009/8/10/we-christians-wont-stop.html?lastPage=true#comment5083165
Tom’s rantimg again
Just wanted to say how happy I am to read your blog. I appreciate your clear, concise, and thoughtful words. It makes me think about my point of view and I’m sure others feel this way. Seriously, just the thought that there is a Christian minister thinking and behaving the way you are gives me hope. Thank you for putting yourself out there. It does make a difference.
Thanks, Lana. You just made my day.
Evolution is obviously true.
Came over from a link at Pharyngula. Another agnostic here. I enjoy your writing and how you think, and I’ll be back to read more (and comment sometimes, although I tend to lurk more than comment on any blog I read).
Thanks Dawn and welcome to the Thomas Society. You are more than welcome to lurk or comment as much you want.
Sir, I wanted to thank you for your rational and well spoken blog. Even though I am primarily agnostic, I have a Christian background, and it hearkens me to see progressive dialogue coming from the Christian community.
Besides, if the website of a “godless liberal” like PZ Meyers can redirect me here (you know, to “wide-eyed fanatic/dogmatic Christians”) maybe there is more hope for peaceful and meaningful dialogues between the “secular” and “religious” communities.
Finally, on the most superficial level, I find you blog to be very well written. A virtue many blogs can stray from. 🙂
Fek’lhr,
Thanks very much. That’s what we try to do at the Thomas Society at Ohio State. The blog is an extension of that. We try to make sure that dialogue continues.
And, as for the writing, I have to confess, I’m cheating. I write as a hobby.
J-
I am glad to see a Christian stand up against fellow Christians when they are in the wrong. The hardest push for me away from Christianity, was the people who I shared my religion(Christianity) with did not stand up and speak up against ignorance and racism, amoung other things that was preached to us. I was a new member of the church, gave my life to Jesus and all that, just to be ‘baptised’ by these evil events that turned me in a nonnegotiable contrarian position towards Christianity only a few weeks later.
Some people will just nod along or turn the cheek, but that never was good enough for me when it is clearly an evil teaching. I think that a blog and a voice like yours can help Christians who also feel this way, who are unable to turn the cheek, and who are then left with nowhere else to turn.
“The problem with this is that God tells us differently. He invites us to reason, to think, to question.”
What incredible bullshit. You Christian retards love to make stuff up. Or does your god fairy call you on the telephone to let you know what it thinks?
HI there, another new visitor coming over from Pharyngula. I’m a “hardcore New Atheist” – i.e. I absolutely don’t believe in God, and find most people who do to be offensive, ignorant and self-opinionated….until now ! You are the first I’ve come across who speaks with an open enough mind to at least appreciate others opinions, even if you don’t agree with them. If more Christians (and indeed Muslims, Jews, Mormons, Scientologists etc etc) were like you, then New Atheists like me would have less to rail against. I have no problem with people believing in God once they’ve thought it through, but they have no right to dictate to me what I should believe in, just as I have no right to dictate to them. It’s this “superiority complex” that drives new Atheists like myself, not belief in God itself.
I know it’s corny, but you’ve restored my “faith” in humanity. If more Religious people can “evolve” (pun intended) as reasonable an approach as you have, New Atheists like me will rapidly become extinct and we can finally live and work together in harmony (cue cheesy music and McCartney/Jackson Duet).
Thanks
Rog
I’m stunned and – I surprise myself to say so – charmed.
I haven’t seen this combination of wit, a nicely self-deprecating sense of humour and the determination to engage honestly in a Christian blogger before.
You say you write as a hobby – are you sure don’t also moonlight as an atheist? 🙂
It makes me happier inside every time I hear about a Christian like yourself. One who doesn’t suppress reason. The kind of Christian I used to be, y’know, before I stopped believing, and a little more pleasant than myself.
Met a person like you this past semester who discussed things quite pleasantly, didn’t try to convert me or tell me I complained to much as an atheist, and had impeccable taste in whiskey.
Oh, but you seem a little hard on the Zoroastrians there. It’s a bit weird when one who believes in the supernatural criticizes another form of supernatural belief… except those Calvinists. 😉
At last! A rational Christian that doesn’t make me embarrassed to be Christian. I knew there had to be people like you, but you were hard to find.
More around than you think Tomato! Thanks for stopping by!
J-
Yeah, well, we dirty Calvinist are like that. 🙂
In seriousness, thanks for stopping by. I really appreciate your comments.
Not a huge fan of whisky. Love the English Hard Cider. Mmmm, Blackthorn….
Oliver,
Your comments inflated my already overly large head. You need to be nastier. 🙂
Thanks very much for your comments. And no, I don’t moonlight as an atheist. Although, I’m a closet Anglican. Shhh, don’t tell anyone.
J-
Roger,
Bowing to you. Thanks very much for your comments and stopping by. Stick around! This is just the begining.
J-
Bobxxx,
He actually just called me and asked if you are your own porn movie. We were just curious.
Thanks for stopping by.
J-
Say, it’s a little off-topic, but do you have a RSS feed for your blog entries? I see you have one for comments, but I haven’t been able to find the actual entries.
Wouter,
Thanks for your comments. They really mean a lot. I hope my blog will be exactly as you describe. You see, I really do believe that Christianity can change the world. As GK Chesterton said, “It’s not that Christianity has been tried and failed. It’s that Christianity has never really been tried.”
Thanks for stopping by!
J-
Kelseigh,
You caught me. I’m still learning all of this blog stuff. How do I set this up?
Doubtfully,
J-
Umm… I think you have the wrong blog: this chap seems to be the model of integrity and measured thought.
No… for a good dose of retardation I strongly recommend you try Tom Estes’ place. I think he’s maybe more your level of discourse.
I’m yet another surfer from Pharyngula, moved enough by the rationality I find here so far that I’ll stick around for a while to see what develops. Though it’s nothing but conjecture on my part, I think if you were representative of Christians there would be little to argue about. The variety of beliefs claimed by their espousers as ‘Christian’ makes the term a lot less descriptive. So I’ll be interested in learning more about your flavor.
I find that we learn about the world around us through science, though in a less rigorous way than professional scientists do. Every time we drop something, it falls to the ground; God never seems to intervene. These repeatable experiments inform us and allow us to predict aspects of everyday life. Such results are not dependent on whether your are a theist or an atheist. I see this as possible common ground upon which to build a dialog.
Ray,
Welcome and thanks for stopping by.
I’m only irrational when I play FIFA soccer on Playstation 2 when my players don’t do what I want them to do.
In seriousness, I hope there are going to be some great discussion. As I make no secret about my beliefs in God, I hope we can have honest discussion and debate.
As for whether God intervenes etc, I suppose it’s how you define the terms. I would certainly say that the law of gravity is set there by God Himself. But, it should be viewed in what I call “secondary causes”.
Hmm, I have no idea. Maybe ask someone more familiar with WordPress.
Just wanted to repeat something I wrote over at Tom Estes’ blog:
Final thought, please add an RSS feed to your blog so I can add it to my list. (-:
OOPS
Now I’m getting people confused. Jonathon, not Johann, is your name IIRC.
Ah, I did a bit of poking around and found this useful link. I think that should help.
In any case, I was able to subscribe using https://thomas2026.wordpress.com/feed/ but the above link should allow you to have a link on your main page for it.
https://thomas2026.wordpress.com/feed/
Hello! I’m another Pharyngula reader enjoying the blog. I wish I’d been able to hear your talk at the SSA conference, but I didn’t make it to your presentation because (a) I think cooperating with Christian groups is something my group already does well, and more importantly, (b) I was up late drinking the previous night. 😀 Maybe we’ll run into each other some other time. Anyway, I’m glad you enjoyed the SSA’s trip to the creation museum, and that you’re calling Ken Ham & Co. on their crap here. In a way, it was frustrating for me to see how successful they were and how much money they had, because other people are trying to make money for real museums these days, and having trouble. Meanwhile, Ken Ham can have a beautiful, expensive museum filled with beautiful, expensive bullshit.
In the museum, I also noticed the “God vs. human reason” theme that you mention here. It surprised me, because I didn’t expect the Young-Earth Creationists to concede that human reason points to evolution and a secular worldview. Most of the Christians I know would not agree with this – they would say that reason and evidence actually point to a God, and the Christian God in particular. I disagree, of course, and the “I think it takes more faith to believe that (there is no God/all of this just happened by random chance/I came from a monkey)” arguments can get pretty tiresome. But at least most people agree that intellectual activity can be worthwhile and productive. By saying, “Human reason tells us that there is no God, the universe began 14 billion years ago, and all species evolved gradually from a single common ancestor,” the creationists are actually admitting that the atheists are the reasonable people in the debate.
At any rate, I enjoy your blog, and you remind me of Slacktivist, another liberal evangelical blogger who frequently criticizes American conservative Christianity. He’s probably best known for his criticism of the Left Behind books. You’ve probably heard of him, but if not, you would probably like him.
Hey Bench,
Thanks for all the kind words. I’m working on getting an RSS feed. Hopefully tomorrow.
Doubtfully,
J-
Like many, I saw a link to your blog at Pharyngula, and I’d like to congratulate you for your well-reasoned articles.
I’m afraid that as a weak atheist, I do not share your religious beliefs. But there is something very important we do share: the belief in the power of human reason.
Please keep doing your work!
Best regards, HRG.
Hrg,
Thank you very much! Thanks for stopping in!
Doubtfully,
J-
Miss Padfoot,
Love your name. Fellow Harry Potter fan Perhaps?
It’s great that your group works well with religious groups. Love to hear that. Lyz and I will be working on making this connection stronger in the future. Perhaps you have some imput? If so, email me.
Ah, so now the real reason you skipped my talk, the ole, I was out late drinking routine. 🙂
As for the discussion of reason and the Creation museum, you are right on! A plate of St. Thomas cookies for you. They already conceed the reason/rationality ground. Something I’m obviously not willing to do. 🙂
Doubtfully,
J-
Bench,
Working the RSS feed. Hope to have it going soon.
I don’t know Hebrew or even Greek, so all I can do is point to the fact that the translations of this verse differ a lot. For example, the German “unity translation” (Einheitsübersetzung), a cooperation project of Catholics and Lutherans published in 1980 rather than 1611, translates the first sentence of 1:18 as Kommt her, wir wollen sehen, wer von uns recht hat, spricht der Herr, which I’d render in English as “come here, let us see who of us is right, speaks the Lord”. This appears to fit the rest of 1:18, 1:19 and 1:20, which talk about acceptance/obedience/submission vs stubborn rejection and their consequences, much better.
Besides, I am not quite sure about Plantinga and even Aquinas as good examples of people who hold reason in high esteem. Plantinga’s most famous argument is founded on the fact that he seems to have never heard of evolutionary epistemology, even though it’s so simple I’d have expected him to have rediscovered it all on his own, and Aquinas’ work, while impressive, contains a couple of rather painful distortions of both reason and the Bible (like when he argues in all seriousness that “love your neighbor like yourself” means “less than yourself” because, quoth Aristotle, the copy is worse than the original).
Johann wrote: “So far, I see you doing more trying and less failing than most. =) Thank you for speaking; it’s refreshing to hear Christians speaking out against ignorance, and treating atheists not as enemies or potential converts but as people.”
It sure is. Threats of hellfire and accusations of nihilism become tiresome after a while.
HRG wrote: “But there is something very important we do share: the belief in the power of human reason.”
Exactly right. If I’m ever at OSU or thereabouts, J, I’ll buy you a beer.
I got referred here by Rae Whitlock (we’re Twitter friends). I’m a young evangelical (24), and I’m really encouraged by what you’re doing here. Many, many props, sir, and if I’m half as articulate and winsome as you are some day, I’ll consider that a miracle.
Manders,
Any friend of Rae’s is a friend of mine. Bowing to you, my friend. And welcome!
Doubtfully,
J-
I’ll hold you to that Denovo.
The best translation is not the German. I would refer you to the ESV and look up their translation philosophy. I do know the Hebrew and reason is the best rendition of this word.
I disagree with you on Plantinga. Come to Ohio State on December 3rd and we are going to have him speak. You can argue with him then.
Sadly, I can’t dig up Aquinas either. Nor can I answer for all of his errors, but his high esteem for reason as given by God is well established.
Thanks for stopping by!
Doubtfully, J-
I’m not expecting anyone to be 100% rational. The fact that no scientist is always rational is why we expect repeatable results and do peer review among other things.
I’m not understanding what you mean by secondary causes. I think you’re saying is that God created gravity as a permanent property of the universe that is not violable. Thus we can rely on it to always act in the same way. While one could ask God to temporarily suspend gravity, such a request is not likely to be granted (not withstanding the ability to move entire mountains with the faith of a mustard seed). As yo can tell, imprecatory prayer is one of the religious issues I’m interested in.
I was perusing a number of athiest links and came across The Thomas Society. I am an athiest perhaps somewhere in between the ‘hard’ and ‘weak’ variety. I too wish to echo the responses of many here to say that I am pelased to find a religious voice that is respectful of non-believers.
I have bookmarked this site and it will be on my reading list. If you find youself in southern california I would love the opportunity to hear you speak.
Count another one from Phyrangula 🙂 My beliefs are more in the realm of Universal/Unitarianism so I am very intersested in your thoughts!
Fabulous to see someone of faith online that’s not frothing 🙂 It is good to get different viewpoints, but it can be hard to find good discourse on the ‘Net. Too many trolls frothing at the mouth everywhere. Here’s hoping they don’t also come over from Pharyngula!
Oh, Thomas 2026, I’m afraid that my husband won’t let me read you any more. He has this thing about OSU people (although I’m not sure who he considers worse—OSU or Notre Dame). Although I am a University of Michigan grad, I am not a rabid person (and have Ohio University alumni family members) but my husband, another U-M grad, IS rather rabid… 🙂
Our eldest, currently at Virginia Tech, considered OSU for graduate school but was afraid of being disinherited so decided not to apply. (Just kidding…the program is a very good one, but they only accept 2 people/year and she didn’t think she would get accepted as they tend to only accept Ohio residents)
Dawn,
That’s good, because I ban all Michigan people instantly. 🙂
In seriousness, welcome to the blog. I guess I’ll let you stay. It’s really more out of pity then anything!
Doubtfully,
J
Kelly,
I dunno, could make it kind of fun. I like troll meat medium rare with a side of toast.
Doubtfully,
J-
Fauxrs,
Thanks for coming by. I gurantee you, if I’m in Southern Cal, we will hang out.
Doubtfully,
J-
Ray,
You hit it on the head about secondary causes. I think i was a little woozy from my hard cider last night.
Imprectory prayer is certainly an interesting one. It’s one my tensions, no question.
Doubtfully,
J-
Fascinating to see the PZ crew express so much surprise. I must have had a warped upbringing as I’ve met many who match Jeff’s take on the dialogs of belief and faith, who if they ever tried to convert me, tried by example and not more forceful means (less forceful in the grander scheme of things). Of course I just laugh at the zealots so maybe it’s all selective recollection. Regardless, complements and may your communication skills only grow.
Thanks El cid. Great having you.
You might consider it surprise, but given that most of the theists that post on Pharyngula seem to have many of the pages of their bible glued together and use logic similarly, it’s more of a relief.
On the other hand, if a theist values reason and evidence, then maybe we have some common ground.
Ray,
No, I’m not suprised at that all. I’m well aware of my fellow CHristians anti reason and logic stances. I deal with it on a daily basis. They forget our long intellectual tradition, which is a huge shame.
Foul-mouthed or not, he does have a point. Claiming that the very definition of dogma (religions) want you to think for yourself and be critical is a huge contradiction. Religion, by its very definition, requires blind, unquestionable faith.1