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All right “Pastor” Tom, you asked for it…. A Very Special Attie Awards.

August 19, 2009

attie_1x600After “Pastor” Tom ignored my invitation to meet for coffee, I resolved I wouldn’t bother anymore. I didn’t even want to give him an Attie, because, frankly, it’ was just too obvious.

But, I can’t help it anymore after his most recent rant on his blog about Obama and Atheists. I can’t handle this guy anymore and the disgrace he brings on the name of Jesus. His most recent rant is so contrary to Jesus, I don’t even know where to begin. I can’t be silent anymore because to do so would be unfaithful to my ordination vow to oppose false teachers. And, as Tom took me to task first in his blog, I feel like I can now answer him freely.

 I’ll start with his idolatry.

Yes, “Pastor” Tom has committed idolatry. How? He has wrapped Jesus in the American flag. Look, I love my country. I really do. But because I love it, I’m painfully aware of its gross flaws. So, this isn’t an Anti-American rant. But when Christians insist on wrapping Jesus in the red, white and blue, all I see is them dancing naked before the Golden Calf, throwing their gold at it’s feet.

Even worse, when he slams atheists as the devil’s agents, it makes me angry. It’s not because I think atheists are right. It’s because they aren’t any worse of a sinner than you, Tom, or me. You have forgotten, “Pastor” Tom, the worst sin you can commit, that of spiritual pride, the sin of the Elder brother in Jesus’ story of the Prodigal Son. I know, Tom, because I used to be there, as I will share more tommorow. As CS Lewis’ charater Screwtape says in his toast at the Devil’s college, “Never do we tempt or have more success than at the foot of the altar”.  Tom forgets that spiritual pride is at the root of all sin.

Here is a clue, “Pastor” Tom. America is not God’s country. There is no such thing. God has a Kingdom, not a country.

But worse than all of that, Your hate of atheists is CONTRARY to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Your fear mongering that they might be gaining some sort of power (which is absurd, given their numbers in this country) does nothing to help any sort of conversation about God and the Gospel.  I wonder, Tom, if you really want them to know Jesus or if you just want to win the argument?

I hope you come to your senses, Tom. I hope you understand the damage you are doing. I still stand by that I will meet you any time, anywhere for coffee with a promise to keep that conversation completely private, no blog reactions. Columbus is not that far from Cincy.

But until then, I have to do this. Congrats, you made me break my Monday Attie rule. Here is your Attie. You deserve it.

St. Thomas, release the hounds….

68 Comments leave one →
  1. Matheus permalink
    August 19, 2009 2:18 am

    Now that is one well deserved attie.
    Hah I swear the first time I heard his piece on the visit to the creation “museum” I knew he was up to no good. Had to give him the benefit of the doubt though.

    The time he posted his “proof” that the bible has science still pisses me off. Several people wrote nice rebuttals ditching every point he made, but he didn’t make even one reply. Next post he was congratulating himself on how he had proved his point and that we atheists were ‘hurt’ by it. That was it for me on that blog then…

    He will just say you are attempting to shutting him up, and will go on farting his rants. Been there, done that.

  2. thomas2026 permalink*
    August 19, 2009 2:25 am

    True, Matheus, but I couldn’t let that one go.

  3. August 19, 2009 3:14 am

    I personally like his “christian minister” comment about you Jonathan. For one, I think that an army of rational, ordained, mainline and evangelical pastors, and future ones, including myself would be the first to object to his being ordained in any church I know of, and I will be the first to, in my Lutheran heritage, sin boldly, and slap him across the face, just like I imagine Jesus would do, or wait, ill do worse, Ill call him satan in aramaic, I think that should get the point across. Shame on him, and the destruction he does to the Gospel. False teachers indeed.

  4. hardtruthblog permalink
    August 19, 2009 3:20 am

    I can’t believe I’m actually commenting on this nonsense, but here I go. Of all the ridiculous mischaracterizations of something I’ve said, this is by far the worst.

    When did I wrap Jesus in an American flag? When did I say America was God’s Kingdom? When have I ever said that I hate atheists?

    I made that post so my Christian readers would know what is happening on college campuses and so they would know that Obama is encouraging these people as they go. Then I encouraged Christians to stand up and be heard, becuase when America was truly a Christian nation, we were in infinitely better shape.

    The Bible, you know that book you never mention, it never tells us that we can’t point out evil. It never tells us that we can point out lies when we see them.

    I think it’s interesting that you act as if you were the one who was provoked. You wrote two or three posts ripping me, and made several disagreeable responses on my blog before I ever responded to you. I made one post, cutting your loosy-goosy positions to shreds with the Bible, and do you dare respond? Nope. You run and hide. But now when I make a post that is passionate about what I believe about something that has nothing to do with you, you have to bash me again.

    And then you talk about me not responding to your invitation to coffee? Come on man. You want to have coffee, contact me through my blog, and we’ll set it up. But this post by you is grossly wrong, and an outright lie. This is nothing more than an attempt to start a fued between us thinking it will raise your hits. Well, it’s not going to work, because there will be no mention of this from my blog.

    If you want to kiss up to atheists, you are free to do that, but you don’t need to continue to bring me up to do it. I just want to write my blog, in hopes of enbolding Christians to stand up for themselves, just leave me alone while I do it.

    I will not respond to anything that you say in response. I’m done.

  5. thomas2026 permalink*
    August 19, 2009 3:27 am

    I actually asked you to coffee on your blog, but you ignored my request.

  6. thomas2026 permalink*
    August 19, 2009 3:30 am

    And, Tom, my hits are doing just fine without you.

  7. thomas2026 permalink*
    August 19, 2009 3:36 am

    Here is my original post on Tom’s blog after I mildly corrected some of his statements about the atheists at the Creation Mueseum in the interest of the truth. He wrote a blog questioning my ministerial qualifications, calling me a so called minister. Here is my reponse. After this response, he wrote a huge long blog ripping me for my “liberal” tendencies, which just made me laugh. That’s when I invited him to coffee and he ignored me. I didn’t “run and hide”. I offered him a chance to talk about this privately and he refused. Below is the post I saved.

    I’m the so-called Christian minister. While I would certainly not claim to be the most perfect Christian in the world and in fact, the chief of sinners, I am still a Christian. And, a fully ordained minister by the laying on of hands by my Fathers and Brothers in Christ by the Evangelical Presbyterian Church. I hope that satisfies that particular question.
    “You know what I would say to him, “Get over it.” And why weren’t you bothered by the way the atheists were looking at the Amish who were there? This guy, whoever he is, is just someone who thinks that giving in to secular pressures is the way to win atheists to Christ, well, he’s wrong.”
    I won’t get over it. When Christ is not being represented and His name in quesiton because of how believers act, I’m required by God’s word to say something. And give into secular pressures? I wonder if Paul did when he said, “I’m all things to all men so that I can win some” or Jesus when he “made himself nothing, taking up the nature of a servant”. The way of the Gospel is humility, grace and weakness. Not power. Not strength. Ask the atheist students I work with if I ever bow to their pressure.
    And further, this is not a power contest with atheists over who is in the majority or who has more power. Thank God He didn’t insist on the same attitude, or we would all be toast. Christians are not called to have their “safe” little places where they can hide from the big bad atheists. We are called to go. We are called to step into the line of fire every chance we get.
    Tom, I’m truly sorry to have to do this on a blog setting. My initial critique of you was very mild and trying to correct things I know not to be true. I didn’t attack you personally, nor question your credentials. I would expect the same courtesy in return.

  8. pbxx permalink
    August 19, 2009 3:43 am

    Looks like the unfailingly hypocritical mad Tom is just cutting and running as he accused you of doing.

    Your popularity is rising and you have atheists (such as me), other ministers, (not Tom, but the Eric above), and people somewhere in between. A broad church if you will.

    Tom has hardly any of his flock commenting, and when us atheists get bored with his freak show he will go further down the Christian top 1000 blogs as is already happening. This Top 1000 being sites of his type only, as you are not on it, although your hits are higher.

  9. thomas2026 permalink*
    August 19, 2009 3:49 am

    The frustrating thing is his claim that I “ran and hid” is nowhere close to the truth. I invited him to coffee to talk about the matter privately, but he ignored it. So, anything he says publicly now is fair game.

  10. August 19, 2009 4:00 am

    You’ve also got one semi-Pagan (well, Tom the Martyr probably thinks I’m another atheist, but nvm). Seriously, his blog is one big exercise in propaganda, self-aggrandizement and general bad attitude. I doubt he thinks much about the people he’s supposed to “bring to Christ”. He just writes them off as lost and preaches to the converted, sometimes preaching them away. I’d suspect him of being an over the top parody, but I’ve seen too many just like him online, he can’t just be written off as a fake, no matter how much our collective sanity may demand it.

    Although he did make my irony meter explode when he posted, “I think [Barry Duke’s] trying to bring it down by making me out to be some crazy liar who flips out when someone disagrees with me. Something which you know is not true.” You owe me a new one, Tom!

  11. erp permalink
    August 19, 2009 4:20 am

    It is possible there was a glitch that deleted your coffee request or he removed it without seeing it when removing other comments. However he does seem to have his preconceptions about atheists, about you and your variety of Christianity.

    I doubt, as one person suggested, slapping him would help. It merely would make him a martyr. So how does one talk? Joan Baez managed to do it with some protesters, Vietnam vets, against her at a recent concert. She went out to meet them and to listen to them and to empathize with them and to talk with them. I know I don’t have the courage to do what she did. She could have just ignored them.

    This blog seems to be evolving in to a common ground for atheists and liberal (or at least non-fundamental) Christians to talk and to listen and that is to the good. Let us see what happens even if we can’t bring Mr. Estes in for coffee.

  12. Matheus permalink
    August 19, 2009 4:23 am

    That was a shock. Always imagined Tom Estes to be a old geezer.
    Don’t let this guy play passive aggressive with you. He posted more than enough evidence that he is not acting honestly. He should apologize for all the stuff he said and I will not expect anything less.

    And notice yet another show of his delusion of grandeur: “This is nothing more than an attempt to start a fued between us thinking it will raise your hits. Well, it’s not going to work, because there will be no mention of this from my blog.”

    Lol. He has a bunch of atheists now he got by trolling in PZ’s blog. I will dare say he is jealous of the attention Myers was receiving. I think that’s why he and Ham keeps saying atheists ‘worship’ PZ.

    In short, he is just a big babbling child. His mind grew older way slower than the rest.

  13. thomas2026 permalink*
    August 19, 2009 4:25 am

    Hey Erp,
    It’s possible, because it’s on his blog now. I couldn’t find it for the longest time, so I have no idea what happend. But, the invitation stands.

    And, this blog is certainly trying to find common ground. But, it depends on what you mean by liberal Christians. I’m a pretty orthodox Christian. But, that’s what motivates me to have this blog.

  14. pbxx permalink
    August 19, 2009 4:39 am

    Tom’s paranoia has just reached new heights.

    First he makes you join to comment , now you can’t even join. The join option seems to be removed.
    Only login remains.

    Now he can rant and rant without the right of reply for new people.

  15. August 19, 2009 4:56 am

    Seriously, I can’t look at the title of his blog without thinking “Hard cheese, old man” in a really fake British accent.

    Or is that just me?

  16. Matheus permalink
    August 19, 2009 4:57 am

    Lol. After another visit to his site, I saw this little gem that made me see things in a completely different angle. This is on his Login page:
    “Warning! You must be able to handle the HardTruth.”
    There is this law around that says that without any obvious sign like a smile, you can’t tell the difference between fundamentalism and a parody of it. It’s called Poe’s Law.
    Now this is so fcking ridiculous that I’m starting to wonder if his blog is actually a parody. If this is true then Tom Estes is a real genius and I worship him from now on as the True God of Comedy. I mean really try it. Try reading his blog again with “this is just a parody” in your mind and it will all start to make sense.

  17. pbxx permalink
    August 19, 2009 5:00 am

    He is no poe , unfortunately.

    He is a real person who shook Pz’s hand then ran away, and has a ‘real’ church in Kentucky.

  18. Matheus permalink
    August 19, 2009 5:07 am

    Well that’s why this poe thing is a law then. Maybe fundamentalism and parody of it are actually the same thing. I think I would have to graduate in philosophy to be able to figure this out though. But seriously my hate against Tom just dissipated and now I can only laugh =)
    It’s better off this way though, for my health at least. Maybe not so for my mind.

  19. Matheus permalink
    August 19, 2009 5:11 am

    I only feel sorry for christians that they can’t categorically dismiss his kind of christinanity as easily and as gracefully as scientists can dismiss pseudoscience.

  20. pbxx permalink
    August 19, 2009 5:14 am

    Here’s his church

    I can’t find him on the above site, although I’m sure he was pictured previously,

    From J:
    Sorry, PBXX, i know this info is on his website, but I can’t really allow it to be posted here. So, it had to go.

  21. August 19, 2009 5:17 am

    One thing Tom the Martyr is good at is projection. I love how he accuses you of posting this in order to start a blog war and get more hits, when that’s exactly what he’s been doing with PZ and his over the top rhetoric about atheists in general. And, well, the cutting and running thing is classic Tom, he always hides from tough questions of any sort. So all he can do is try to claim somebody else has those flaws.

    …and now “The Piano Has Been Drinking” is running through my head…

  22. erp permalink
    August 19, 2009 5:56 am


    I suspect most people like to consider themselves ‘orthodox’. It’s the other people who are conservative or liberal heretics :-). What you aren’t is a fundamentalist in the sense of rejecting modern science. I’m awaiting part 2 of your confessions.

    Since you are revealing part of yourself, perhaps your audience should reveal part of themselves. Myself I’m an atheistic humanist with a family heritage in one branch of atheism going back my great grandparents (most of the rest were Church of England or Quakers). However the atheists tended to be live and let live (one of my great grandfather’s cousins, an atheist/agnostic, wrote or arranged a fair bit of music for CoE hymns many of which are still in the hymnal).

  23. Johann permalink
    August 19, 2009 7:09 am

    Derisive wall of text incoming. My apologies in advance. 😉

    ” One of the most salient features of our culture is that there is so much bullshit. Everyone knows this. Each of us contributes his share. But we tend to take the situation for granted. Most people are rather confident of their ability to recognize bullshit and to avoid being taken in by it. So the phenomenon has not aroused much deliberate concern, nor attracted much sustained inquiry.

    In consequence, we have no clear understanding of what bullshit is, why there is so much of it, or what functions it serves. And we lack a conscientiously developed appreciation of what it means to us. In other words, we have no theory.”

    This is the beginning of Harry Frankfurt’s On Bullshit – first an essay, now a small book perched somewhere on the intersection of philosophy and semantics and definitely worth an hour of your time.

    So what’s the theory? Frankfurt says that there’s an important distinction between lies and bullshit. A liar, you see, knows what the truth is but deliberately makes a different claim. To a liar, truth matters. A bullshitter simply doesn’t care whether what he’s telling you is true or false – what matters is whether it advances his goals. A bullshitter has no interest in the truth.

    So why am I bringing this up? Because I just remembered this book, and something clicked.


    This is what’s been bothering me from the first day I stepped into Honest Tom’s Shack of Horrors.

    He doesn’t give a damn about the truth. Not one bit. He struts and he vents and he pontificates, and he blithely makes up things that leave you thinking “What is this guy on?”…and that’s just fine by him. Because his intended audience doesn’t question him, and mostly they don’t know better anyway, so he can huff and puff and inflate his authority as far as he likes.

    This was the post on which I joined the spectacle already in progress, and I think it’s the perfect example. He had a conclusion already, but he needed some facts to hang it on. So what does Tom do in a situation like this? He makes them up.

    Elaine Morgan becomes “a scientist, a really smart scientist” – no one else has ever claimed this, not even Elaine herself; this is a Tom Estes HardTruth™ Original. Peer-reviewed papers spring into existence, ink deposited on their sheets by the grace of Jesus as they gently glide down into neatly collated stacks. History bends itself into a pretzel and grafts on a newfound loop with hitherto unknown “tests and retests”. The very clip that he posted undergoes a transsubstantiation – sure, to our unsaved eyes it still looks like kvetching about our lack of acceptance for unsubstantiated hypotheses, but the spiritual substance of it now shakes the theory of evolution to its core. And, as a cherry on top, the HardTruth™ about how this newly equipped Biblezilla is going to crush us.

    Needless to say, we weren’t his regular audience. To us, his claims ring a little hollow like an elephant tapdancing on a submarine, and we weren’t shy about pointing it out. So he had to adjust. You could almost see him trying his Christian Soldier cap on for size.

    At first, he tried staring us down with a bluff:

    …did you watch the whole thing? She slammed the entire process of evolution as present for the last 60 years…

    …I know you think I’m being misleading, but I’m really not. She disproves EVERYTHING that evolutionists believe to be true, EVERYTHING…

    That didn’t work so well. People continued correcting him, and even included links! That anyone could follow! Even people from his congregation! That, of course, wouldn’t do; bullshit doesn’t do very well around evidence. Cue his final response: “Oh. You noticed how I made all of that up? NEVER MIND SARCASM SARCASM MY FINGER SLIPPED NEXT TOPIC.”

    And this was notable as more than just an obvious misdirection. This, after all, is the only time on his blog that he ever admitted being wrong in any way whatsoever. From then on, when someone pointed out that he had no clue what he was talking about and where he could learn more, he either dismissed them or ignored them and went right on repeating it.

    This seems to be a theme with him. He wasn’t talking to us in order to understand or to learn; he was in it to “win”. At first it seemed like he was trying to win converts:

    So put your faith in God, he has no hidden agendas…

    If atheists would simply accept the simple, basic fact that God exists, they would stop all of this nonsense…

    God is on our side, so we won’t give up, not now, not ever…

    These people simply need the Lord. God has the ability to change their hearts, and I hope he does…

    But gradually, a different picture emerged:

    But don’t worry atheists, we’ll all see who’s right soon enough…

    …if more Christians were willing to make their voices heard, the atheists would probably keep quiet…

    …like I always say, we’re on the winning side…


    …not only will we fight, but we’ll win the fight because God is on our side…

    And from there he dove straight into ad hominem – us, PZ, Jonathan, anyone who disagreed with him. You saw it already, I don’t need to recap it for you.

    I did try for a slight twist at the end, though. I was curious whether, at least in his own head, he sees himself as an honest man. So I picked something that he made up about us where no knowledge and no education – just a pair of eyes and his own blog – was needed to see that it was false, and I challenged him him on it, figuring that someone trying to be honest would either back it up or take it back.

    And was ignored, so I did it again.

    And again. Hey, he actually replied this time! He seemed to have completely misunderstood what I was talking about, but hey, at least he replied, and he did say he’d “respond tomorrow”. Maybe there’s some hope after all.

    Tomorrow came and went, so the day after I reminded him about this. Did he respond? Oh yes he did. How?

    “I don’t want to talk about it anymore.”

    Integrity, meet Tom. Tom, meet…hey, where’d integrity go?

    Oh well. Guess you’ll have to make do with HardTruth™ instead.

  24. MWB permalink
    August 19, 2009 7:14 am

    Hi erp , my time i gyess .
    I was in thrall to the Baptist Church from the age of 7 to 13 , during much of my stay I was constantly harassed by racist members , subjected to ” fire an brimstone ” sermons by the laypeople as well as witnessing a great number of sins perpetrated by these so called warriors of Christ .

    “It is all a test for you ” , was the answer to many of my queries regarding all the inequities .

    Well , I had more than enough of the tests by the age of 15 and had lost the type of faith (IMHO) that only the young and innocent can attain .

    I am 50 now and have been to a great many different churches and denominations most curiously and have found wonderful people in all of the various churches I have been to .
    I now consider myself deist , theist or atheist depending on my mood most of the time .

    Having listened to dogma from so many avenues through the years I had come to wonder for the longest time ( paraphrasing Buffalo Springfield ) , ” how can anyone be right when everyone is wrong ? ”

    I can’t see how we can have a Heaven in this Garden of Eden we call Earth when all God’s children can’t see that’s Christ’s basic message is love .

    thomas2026 , I am very grateful for this site and the fine members you have attracted .

    Regards to all , MWB

  25. MWB permalink
    August 19, 2009 7:19 am

    Oops …. a whole lotta typos above ( not to mention bad grammar ) … is there an edit function in here ?

  26. Richard Eis permalink
    August 19, 2009 11:03 am

    -The Bible, you know that book you never mention, it never tells us that we can’t point out evil. It never tells us that we can point out lies when we see them.-

    See Tom doesn’t hate atheists. He just thinks we are evil liars.

    He has now made it so he has to approve of every comment (which just messes up the order and makes commenting pointlessly long). Since I also just had to correct one of his people that the IRA was not God’s punishment for Britain allowing abortion (WTF!?!?) I think i’m more than happy to let his blog alone to dissolve into whatever mad hyping he wants. The only thing missing is a post on Obama’s birthplace and the nuttery will be complete.

  27. AdamK permalink
    August 19, 2009 12:50 pm

    Pastor Tom, where in the bible does Jesus tell you to be revolting and repulsive, and to drag his reputation through the dirt?

    Even if I were somehow convinced that there was some supernatural indetectable consciousness in the universe, can you see why christianity is the last place I’d look for an explanation?

    You’ll know they are christian by their ranting, irrational self-regard, I guess.

  28. August 19, 2009 2:27 pm

    Fact is, Honest Tom, King of the Martyrs and his ilk don’t worship God or Jesus at all. Those are just names to drop and make them look important. If they worship anything at all, it’s themselves. And, of course, their closely-identified champions like Ken Ham and the like, but it all comes down to the reflected glory onto their own fine selves. In a secondary sense, I suppose they worship the Bible, since it’s held in far higher regard than the actual planet that God supposedly created or any evidence to the contrary.

    So the hierarchy of worship for Honest Tom:

    1: Tom
    2: Ken Ham (or high profile evangelists like him) as a surrogate for Tom himself
    3: The Bible
    4: Trailing far, far in the distance, God and Jesus. Usually appearing in name only.

  29. Johann permalink
    August 19, 2009 2:33 pm

    Heh. Looks like disabling new registrations wasn’t enough – Tom also deleted the accounts of everybody who disagreed with him. Maybe he’ll put up a link where True Christians (certificate of baptism, ten references and a documented miracle required) can apply for the honor of commenting on his rants. 😉

  30. Richard Eis permalink
    August 19, 2009 2:47 pm

    Shrug. He says loss of faith is an issue close to his heart. However he locks out and deletes comments, doesn’t listen or respond to serious questions and insults anyone who’s beliefs differ. It is not hard to see why that would be a bugbear with him. Unfortunately he fails to see why that might be.

  31. joe agnost permalink
    August 19, 2009 3:19 pm

    We’ve all been banned now… which is probably for the best. We weren’t getting anywhere with him anyway – he is a closed case, unwilling to change his views (even when confronted with evidence).

    Yup – he’s banned all the atheists and/or scientists. Hard truth? Really?

  32. Richard Eis permalink
    August 19, 2009 3:29 pm

    It was going to end that way anyway. At least we made a few other people think for themselves while we were there.

  33. Richard Eis permalink
    August 19, 2009 3:37 pm

    oh wow. I just read his latest blog post. That was…painful. His two “atheist friends” won’t last long either since he just called them vile and god hating….again…

  34. August 19, 2009 3:44 pm

    I bet he’s got some friends who are black, too!

  35. August 19, 2009 3:48 pm

    Oh, this is just precious.

    Most Christian blogs don’t have a lot of people who comment, they do however, have a lot of readers, and I’m thankful the readership has grown to what it has by the grace of God.

    So in fact it had to do with page views all along. Hate to say it Tom, but most of us were watching to see you get schooled, not to see you spouting off lies at an echo chamber. Your “God-given” pagecount is gonna drop like a stone now that you’re talking to yourself.

  36. Chris permalink
    August 19, 2009 3:51 pm


    Testes Blog is now officially free of uncomfortable truths. No more dissenting commens just plain preaching, not unlike on sundays 😀

    I am truly disgusted by this guy. Also, has anyone read the hilarious (or really sad, depends) Hitler is my hero rant?

  37. Johann permalink
    August 19, 2009 3:52 pm

    “When I started this blog, I wanted to show non-Christians that truly rational thought is one that understands that we have an all-powerful, loving God who created us in His image, and sustains the world we live in.”

    *dies laughing*

    …and he’s still lying – the first half of his blog is just preaching to the choir about how global warming is a lie, abortion is genocide, women should cover themselves up more and homosexuals want to destroy marriage. I think he decided that truth is just too hard, and is going for persistence instead.

  38. pbxx permalink
    August 19, 2009 3:59 pm

    Well at least Tommy has found a new best buddy , one Bob Hutton who was banned from for homophobic rants amongst other things.

    Bob has also been arrested a number of times in UK under hate speech rules indulging his hobby as a street ‘preacher’ .

  39. joe agnost permalink
    August 19, 2009 4:00 pm

    Kelseigh: “Your “God-given” pagecount is gonna drop like a stone now that you’re talking to yourself”

    Yup – exactly.

    The only reason the site was worth anything was because of the comments by bright people espousing logic and correcting the MANY MANY lies and/or errors of Testes! If not for the atheists/scientist/logical comments the site would be (is now) worthless!

    Oh well… I’m sure his wife will still read it! And Brandan/Shaun can still have it read to them. 😉

  40. August 19, 2009 4:15 pm

    Well, now that he’s worthless I’m closing that tab. What’s the sense in giving him pageviews? I might as well go read Conservapedia, or better yet Rationalwiki making fun of Conservapedia.

  41. Richard Eis permalink
    August 19, 2009 5:31 pm

    -I bet he’s got some friends who are black, too!-

    I was going to do that joke. But the last post fried my brain too much. All humour was sucked out of my bones by his tortured ramblings on “logic” and “truth”.

    Tom also deleted my comments to Bob about how the IRA was not an act of God against Britain in 1968 for abortion laws “KILLING BABIES” (since the IRA started in 1916) and that hermaphrodites easily disprove his idiotic notion that teh gay is a choice. As they say, with friends like those. Who needs enemies.

  42. August 19, 2009 5:46 pm

    I must admit, I’m a bit fuzzy on exactly how the existence of intersexed individuals (I assume you’re talking about humans rather than hermaphroditic organisms that are supposed to be that way) have any particular relation to homosexuality being a choice or not. Physical morphology, gender identity and sexual orientation don’t necessarily have that much of a connection to each other.

  43. Richard Eis permalink
    August 19, 2009 6:29 pm

    Bob’s position is that being gay is a “vile” choice. A punishable sin akin to rape or stealing.

    By pointing out that a part of the human anatomy can be “seen” to be both sexes (or not quite either sex) from birth it therefore stands to reason that any part of the body may be so affected. Including the brain.

    Homosexuality can i’m sure be a choice for some people however some of us were not so fortunate.

  44. August 19, 2009 6:40 pm

    Okay, I can kinda see that reasoning. Of course to people like Bob, anything that doesn’t conform to his idealized concept of sexual roles counts as homosexuality and thus an abomination, so the finer details are really moot anyhow.

    I suspect most people who “choose” are actually bisexual to some degree, so the attraction is still there, it’s just there’s not the lack of attraction to opposite sex to go with it. So one might go with the opposite sex and not find it distasteful at all, and never act on same-sex attraction even though it’s present. But then, there’s anti-bisexual bias both in the straight and gay communities, with a lot of pressure to “choose” one or the other.

  45. Richard Eis permalink
    August 19, 2009 6:55 pm

    -Of course to people like Bob, anything that doesn’t conform to his idealized concept of sexual roles counts as homosexuality and thus an abomination-

    Yes but we already know Bob is one apple short of a fruit-basket. I really couldn’t even get angry at him. The comment was for the people like you who go…wait..what hermaphodite..whut? quick to wikipedia….

    -But then, there’s anti-bisexual bias both in the straight and gay communities-

    Humans like to label things. I’m not quite sure why.

  46. August 19, 2009 7:14 pm

    A lot of people also like to belong to homogeneous communities. I’ve never really identified with that myself, I like hanging with loads of weird people of various sorts. Waaaay more interesting and fun, and healthier for my brain as well.

  47. Edward Lark permalink
    August 19, 2009 8:28 pm

    Did any of the other exiles notice that Tom’s tagline has now changed from “A Renaissance of Rational Thinking” to “Exposing the Adverse Affects of Atheism On Our World.” I count that as a tacit admission that he is no longer even pretending to be concerned with “rational thinking.”

    I am going to take Kelseigh’s advice and delete the tag for the blog. It was already getting overly tedious, especially with the introduction of Basketcase Bob. Dena and the other worthwhile posters that managed to survive the purge are on borrowed time, I’m afraid. Tom needs a few token atheists to rail against so that he can claim to have “shredded” their arguments by ignoring them, but he does not seem secure enough in his own station to tolerate continued disagreement for long.

  48. Matheus permalink
    August 19, 2009 11:19 pm

    Did any of the other exiles notice that Tom’s tagline has now changed from “A Renaissance of Rational Thinking” to “Exposing the Adverse Affects of Atheism”

    Adverse Affects? I think Tom dropped out of his english classes..

  49. August 19, 2009 11:54 pm

    I couldn’t help but attempt to write a couple of comments on the posts there. I believe I was measured and reasonable so I’ll be interested to see if they are approved due to this “no atheists” policy.

    It’s his blog, he can do what he wants, but I can’t see where he’s going to accomplish anything with a closed system of people all agreeing with one another.

  50. SuperCorgi permalink
    August 20, 2009 1:50 am

    See Tom doesn’t hate atheists. He just thinks we are evil liars.

    Don’t forget evil, vile liars!

  51. Richard Eis permalink
    August 20, 2009 8:01 am

    -Don’t forget evil, vile liars!-
    How could i forget 🙂 Unfortunately since he didn’t use it in his message on this post i couldn’t use his favourite word EVAR!!!!1!!!

    Actually, i’ve just been back and watched the video on the balloon. Which didn’t really work as an analogy. Someone posted a nice reply about how he would have done the same video though.

  52. AdamK permalink
    August 20, 2009 2:10 pm

    Don’t forget evil, vile liars!

    Evil, vile, LIVE liars to boot.

  53. SuperCorgi permalink
    August 20, 2009 8:42 pm

    Evil, vile, God-hating liars! I forgot about the god-hating part the first time around.

  54. SuperCorgi permalink
    August 20, 2009 8:43 pm

    Ooops that’s what I get for not doing my closing HTML right.

  55. August 20, 2009 9:31 pm

    An update: I read his “Rules,” and after determining my posts did not break any of them, I wrote to Tom asking nicely why my comments had not been posted.

    No response.

  56. August 20, 2009 10:13 pm

    …but after I sent him another note, this time less polite and freely expressing the opinion of him that I formed independently (but is no different from those expressed here), of course he took the time to respond to that one. Including calling my comment off-topic. You know, the one in response to the harm that atheists cause in which I detailed the work I’ve done to help others? Yeah, totally off-topic.

    It only saddens me to see someone live up to his reputation so perfectly. I always hold out hope that it’s not as bad as it’s been cracked up to be but this guy is plenty cracked.

  57. Robin Carlson permalink
    August 20, 2009 10:22 pm

    Tom absolutely breaks my heart. I’ve watched his train wreck of a blog ever since I heard about him a couple days after the Creation “Museum” visit and it’s filled with nothing but ego and hatred.

    I think the reason why it hurts to read his words is because it’s not the depiction of Christ, Christians or church that my family has embraced so beautifully. I suppose saying that is pretty pompous, but man, I didn’t even know people like Tom existed! I am so thankful for the wonderful Christians I have known that have sought their God through love, understanding, and knowledge. No creator that made such a wonderful universe (and gave us such wonderful brains) could be half as vengeful and petty as Tom’s god.

    Tom is an abomination… and that’s the hard truth.

  58. Johann permalink
    August 20, 2009 10:34 pm

    …so I was reading through a couple of old discussion threads, and came across this: “Start your own blog and crush them everyday from there. These sheep become very meek and mild when they have to leave the fold.”

    Ahh, Tom. The comedy that keeps on giving. 😉

  59. thomas2026 permalink*
    August 20, 2009 10:34 pm

    Preach it, Robin. Glad to have you!

  60. August 20, 2009 11:36 pm

    “He has wrapped Jesus in the American flag.”

    …Like this?


  61. thomas2026 permalink*
    August 20, 2009 11:37 pm

    Oh, my, I have no words for that.

  62. Matheus permalink
    August 21, 2009 12:41 am

    By the way, after being unable to suppress my morbid curiosity, I had to take a look again at that trainwreck that is his blog. Now it’s filled with ads. I have no interest in letting him make money off that, so I’m never visiting there again, and I advise you to do the same.
    To all of you curious ones, let me just say that his last article he tried to give a good spin on the debunking of his arguments by PZ. Something along the lines of “Oh it was me in the news again”.
    So yeah, he is an attention whore, better to counter that with ignoring him from now on.

  63. Chris P permalink
    August 21, 2009 1:16 am

    But “I” did have my credentials – baptism certificate, confirmation and membership of the Episcopal church. Apparently for some strange reason, now I am an atheist, I was never, according to Tom, a Christian.

    I have no idea how it makes up this stuff.

    Chris P

  64. August 21, 2009 4:16 am

    “I wonder, Tom if you really want them to know Jesus or if you just want to win the argument?”

    I think he just wants to win the argument. It’s sad…but it does seem that way. If not then I hope he can turn himself around and realize how he comes across. Maybe he doesn’t realize it? I know it’s been pointed out, I myself have pointed it out..he ignored me. Maybe with a little time he’ll mellow out a bit? I believe that if you are going to invite atheists to your blog you absolutely must consider your words, your attitude and how you interact with others. Tom doesn’t seem to think he needs to worry about it. In time, hopefully he figures it out.

  65. thomas2026 permalink*
    August 21, 2009 7:03 am

    Welcome, Delilah.

  66. Matheus permalink
    August 21, 2009 7:37 am

    @Chris P
    Yeah, that’s stuff taken from calvinism. This True Christian thing where you can never be sure until the person dies. You might wanna ask them what stops a person from leaving the christian faith after they die.

    @Delilah – Dena
    By the way, just want to add to your whole discussion about hell, that to many christians, Tom included, they see belief in hell as a necessary thing, or else there would be nothing stopping them from going around killing people. Absurdity of that aside, how can you reconcile a loving god with one that uses fear of punishment to keep people in line? Making a point similar to Hitchens’, that does sound like an omnipotent version of Stalin.

  67. August 21, 2009 5:35 pm

    Actually, many Calvinists will tell you that you can’t know even after a person dies. Only God knows if a person has been chosen to go to heaven or hell. A man could live his life for God, think he has a relationship with Him and then wake up in hell. I was told this by some Calvinists. I don’t really understand their line on thinking but I’m pretty certain it’s fruitless to try. Apparently god is just a giant meanie head in the sky who creates humans so he can throw them in hell and watch them fry. It’s their fault of course, they were sinners. Nevermind the fact they didn’t create themselves and god never gave them a chance. Now that’s love right there!

  68. August 21, 2009 5:40 pm

    “Fact is, Honest Tom, King of the Martyrs and his ilk don’t worship God or Jesus at all. Those are just names to drop and make them look important. If they worship anything at all, it’s themselves. And, of course, their closely-identified champions like Ken Ham and the like, but it all comes down to the reflected glory onto their own fine selves. ”

    This is what makes me sad. If I see this and you see it…then so does everyone else. This is the kind of junk that can push people further away from God. It doesn’t bring anyone any closer to Him. For now Tom is letting me stay around (Thanks Tom!) so I guess I will.

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